I know this guy that is a super outstanding dude....he has an amazing story. See, his mom and dad were both very abusive physically and verbally to him and his brothers and sisters. While his brothers and sisters have dabbled in questionable activities and struggle consistently with abuse of their own family etc..., this man remained steadfast and has become a valiant warrior for the Lord.
So, here's my plan, we put alchoholic abusive parents in every household since there has been such a good result with this guy...
Yeah, I hear you. Pretty stupid. But don't we all do that with our own circumstances? Don't we think that our own experiences and successes would work for everyone? Obviously, I super exaggerated the story above, but the principle is the same. When I hear success stories of people in certain scenarios and hear how they support it because of that, it always makes me wonder. My primary question is, have we stoopified the miracles such as this story and made them commomplace or, in our efforts try to formulize our experiences to apply them to others and think that the outcomes will be the same, removed the Spirit's work? It's not that I think that we can thwart God's will, but I do think that He is never confined nor conformed to our ways of doing things and if we are too proud, He will pass us by.
I don't see in scripture any pattern that supports the copying of successes for the same blessings that were received.. The only consistencies that I see is the petitioning to God. The way He answers is His own for His own good. His ways are not ours and His thoughts are so far above ours that it would be silly to try to formulize things like that.
I would say that there is nothing that guarentees blessings based on anyone elses success or failure. Each blessing or answer or acknowledgement from the Lord, in my opinion, should be considered miraculous...
4 comments:
Mike, it looks like an old post, but I felt compelled to comment. I think I see the decision making process a bit differently.
>>have we stoopified the miracles such as this story and made them commomplace or, in our efforts try to formulize our experiences to apply them to others and think that the outcomes will be the same, removed the Spirit's work?<<
Well first, "removed from the Spirit's work," it does not matter what we do, we will not see holiness or true spiritual success. For instance, it is no less miraculous that your kids would grow up to love and walk with the Lord than it is that you do, regardless of what you provide for them. The difference is, if you make choices in your life based on Scripture, or in this example, raise your children in the ways of the Lord, you are participating in the work He is doing.
>>I don't see in scripture any pattern that supports the copying of successes for the same blessings that were received.<<
It depends on what you are talking about. Scripture does teach us to model our lives after those who are "strong." I think it is safe to say that if you follow the example of others IN THE FOLLOWING OF THE LORD, you are guaranteed spiritual blessing. However, buying the same brand of television (or toothpaste, if you prefer) will not necessarily result in any measurable spiritual blessing. My point is that there ARE some things we are to model.
Most examples like I think you are giving should be encouragement for us. If you know Jesus, whatever you do in following Him will bring spiritual blessing. Your opening illustration was not a statement of how great your friend is, but of how great God is. What your friend did that was great was to seek God and follow Him even in spite of coming from difficult situations. The soundness and stability he experiences in spite of his upbringing is the work of God.
This encourages me that if I am following God, and that road leads me to difficult situations, He can (and will) still bless me spiritually if I continue to seek and follow Him.
I think your point is that this does not mean you can be reckless in making choices, because it worked okay for someone else. I would agree, but in a different way. I think you need to seek the Lord with any decision. Sometimes He leads you to decisions that don't make a lot of sense to others in the Body (I'm not talking about sinful activities).
I went to a secular college, while many of my Christian friends went to great Christian schools. After praying about the decision I felt absolutely led to Colorado State. He blessed me greatly spiritually, some would say far beyond many of my friends. However, it was because I was seeking the Lord, and doing what He was leading me to do that would bring about any blessing.
If I would have not followed the Lord while at college, I would not have had what blessings I did. At the same time, if I would have made a fleshly (spiritual looking) decision and gone to the Christian college my friends did, I would have missed out on blessings God intended for me. However, if I would have sought Him and followed Him after making a fleshly choice, He would have blessed me as well, though differently.
My 4 cents (2X too long a post).
Sorry for the long comment.
Les
I think we are saying the same things. Like in your example, in your obedience to God, you received blessings, not just because you knew of this one dude that went there and got blessed.
It's ths same thing in ALL decisions. I think you said that too. I am saying that if we merely look at the results of others or even our own history and try to duplicate actions or events is definitely no guarantee of a blessing. Just because I have been blessed and others may see that and wonder what I did in my life, what my circumstances were, etc. just to get the same result.
I guess a perfect example is people following the book, "The Purpose Driven Church". I have seen some mimic the actions, etc. to a "T" and have great success (whatever that means) and others try to implement it to lose their congregation. If it's not your own pursuit of Jesus, it's wasted time. I know that people drove out demons in Jesus name that didn't know Him and He was ok with it. But, the ones making the claims didn't have such a blessing...
any way..all that to say I think we agree...
I didn't know exactly what you were getting at - felt like there was a situation you were addressing, but not directly. Just thought I would clarify a bit with a LONG response.
You give a good example - The Purpose Driven Church. I would agree with you that doing the exact same things as churches who use that book won't necessarily mean the same type of growth, though I believe that more often than not if you apply the principles of the book, you will see significant growth.
The reason for this, in my opinion, is not spiritual blessing, but natural reality. The book contains sound fundamental truths. The question can be asked if a church should be run by those truths, but they are truths none the less. Certain marketing techniques work pretty universally, in churches and business. The churches that "fail" using these methods are probably applying the exact form of other churches, not the principles to their "target audience. The baseline principles to produce growth generally work. However, the underlying principle needs to be applied correctly to various audiences. "Sell" the church and Christ correctly to the defined audience, and you get numerical growth. Give people a good show and perfect clarity whether overly simplified or not) and people will want to come.
The question is, are we willing to use such sound business principles to bring people to church? Does it violate our fundamental mission of focusing on the Bible and the power of God over marketing techniques?
What I am saying is that natural "blessing" will often follow natural formulas. This is sort of the opposite of your illustration in your post. An exception of a guy, rescued by God from a tough situation. Put a bunch of people in that situation, and your not likely to create similar results with frequency.
My point is that the same problem occurs with that which is naturally "smart." Even if you produce a desirable effect, is it Spiritual blessing, or natural principles. Nothing wrong with using our minds to think logically. However, we are to be driven by God, when it seems He is guiding in a different direction. Smart decisions (like not placing an abusive parent in every home) are a generally good thing, but not always the right thing.
Does that make sense?
Good discussion for me - causes me to order my thoughts.
Les
Hurry up and post about what you did to Lane!!!:P
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